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Efrem (efrem)
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Post Number: 20
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 8:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well...,

To get this old ball off and running, for the fellow jazz enthusiasts in the group and for any who wish to begin ridding themselves of erroneous thoughts, please consider the following, particularly her "musings":
http://www.jenniferleitham.com/index.htm

Please keep in mind that this is just one part of the Gay/Gender Different Spectrum; there are many others.

Love,
Efrem
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Efrem (efrem)
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Post Number: 21
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Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 9:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jennifer Leitham "before"

Bassist John Leitham "before"
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Efrem (efrem)
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Posted on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 6:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mmmmm......,

I sense spittle forming at the corners of unshaven gray bearded mouths; heads nodding as flies are disturbed and perhaps the wheels on the chairs need greasing.

Mama walks out on the porch, shakes the flour outta her apron, and says, "I declare, that old geezer done up an' dropped off agin. What I'm ever gonna do with you Jehu?!"

Love,
Efrem
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Scooper (admin)
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Post Number: 316
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Posted on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 10:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, Efrem,

In my experience with transgendered people, they tend to be so uncomfortable with their birth gender that the only alternative to changing gender is suicide. Gender reassignment surgery, if one elects to do it, has in the past been a long, arduous, painful, and sometimes life-threatening ordeal. I don't know what it is like today, but I hope surgical (and hormonal) technique has improved.

With regard to hormones, Ira Glass, host of "This American Life" on NPR, did a whole show on the effects of testosterone on how people experience their existence and everything around it. One segment featured a man who had been a lesbian woman. He described the change in consciousness that accompanied the first injections of testosterone with words to this effect: "Before testosterone, I would notice a woman and think 'She seems really neat. I'd like to get to know her.' After testosterone, something in my head says, 'Hey, check her out. Look at her breasts.' It's like I used to be a really out there progressive lesbian, and now, I'm just another jerk."

I had to laugh. That was the most liberating thing I'd heard about sex in a long time. It made me feel so much better about being a guy.

But back to transgendering and Jennifer Leitham. Jennifer photographs better as a woman than as a man. This probably helps her with the discrimination commonly directed against transgendered people.

There is also the case of the baby boy whose penis was accidentally destroyed in a botched circumsision. On the advice of a noted psychologist he was raised as a girl. As a girl, she suffered a life of depression until she found out (in her early twenties I think) about her past. At last, a solution existed! She had gender re-reassignment surgery, re-became a man, and is now married to a woman. Another bit of scientific evidence that gender identity is NOT learned, but is somehow innate. In other words, you gotta be who you gotta be.

But the non-transgendered can be so uncomfortable with that. What's that about?
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Efrem (efrem)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 4:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John,

Thanks for your notice and reply.

My own variance in sexuality and/or gender ID (a subject thought of as falling in one of the three 'personal business' categories, "Politics, Religion, Sex") is a facet that I, like a lot of others, didn't begin dealing with until mid life.

As I began the exploration, the many categories accompanied by their stereotypes were confusing and I took many a 'wrong turn' until I began finding my 'self'. I only mention this as a preface to anything that follows because I would like it understood by any who join this thread that understanding this most basic, core personality 'construct' is confusing and sometimes extremely difficult even for those of us who actually identify as bi, homosexual or 'gender different'.

Further, one's true 'sexuality' is often smushed down early in life when we are made aware from societal pressures that our 'natural' inclinations are not only not acceptable but actually punishable by beatings, imprisonment or death. As a result, many live the majority of their lives in near total denial of 'self' and/or not coming to terms with 'things' until much later in their lives; sometimes in their 50's, 60's or 70's.

Imagine being forced to deny your own heterosexual nature for thirty or forty years.

'Nuff said.

..........................................................................

Initially, I'd like to present the various categories of what is generally thought of as 'gender dysphoria'; homosexuality and bisexuality being areas in which most people (gay or straight) have at least a basic understanding, at this point I will try to define the less well known:

Transvestite:
Someone who enjoys wearing the clothes of, and posturing as, a member of the opposite sex. These individuals are usually, but not always, heterosexual in orientation.

Transgender:
Someone who exhibits aspects of both genders in their general presentation. They may identify as TVs, TSs and/or Androgynes. They may be attracted to their own birth sex but many are not.

Transexual:
Unhappy with their birth sex and gender, they identify with the opposite sex and gender. Classically, it is said that a MTF Transexual will be a het female once SRS is done, but there is a lot of evidence that says an unusually high number of MTF TSs are lesbian. Most TSs, however, would have sex with a man with the understanding that they are to be taken as women and not as homosexual males.

Androgyne:
Someone with the gender identity of both a man and a woman, or neither. Some are heterosexual, some are gay, and some are bi. Androgynes are open to sex (and romantic love) with a variety of people: men, women and all sorts of people in between.

Autogynephilia:
An individual who is excited by the notion of being a woman. Autogynephics are motivated by a need to manifest as a woman for pleasure (whether sexual, emotional or psychological), and being with a man can be seen as a validation of that womanhood.

......................................................................

To wrap this post up, I'll get back to John's initial post:

FuttermanWrit:

"In my experience with transgendered people, they tend to be so
uncomfortable with their birth gender that the only alternative to
changing gender is suicide...."

While admittedly, some individuals who deal with their gender dysphoria do take the 'ultimate solution', I would like to suggest that this is another stereotype and that whatever 'unhappiness' results is not from being 'gender different', but from not being able to simply and safely live a life manifesting their personal identity.

"....Gender reassignment surgery, if one elects
to do it, has in the past been a long, arduous, painful, and sometimes
life-threatening ordeal....."

I'm what's called a non-op (as opposed to a 'pre' or 'post' operation), but, from everything I've read, the process has gotten infinitely better/safer. There are doctors in the U.S. who perform the SRS and Thailand is another popular 'resource'.

"...Ira Glass, host of "This American Life" on
NPR, did a whole show on the effects of testosterone on how people
experience their existence and everything around it...."

One of my favorite NPR shows, (along with 'ReWind', 'Prarie Home Companion' and 'Infinite Mind'); I remember that program and had much the same reaction as you.

".....Another bit of scientific evidence that gender identity is NOT
learned, but is somehow innate. In other words, you gotta be who you
gotta be.

But the non-transgendered can be so uncomfortable with that. What's
that about?"

Didn't quite understand this last question..., are you referring to 'straight' folk being uncomfortable with 'gender different' people?

Got to get to work...; I hope this post has been interesting/useful/whatEVER to someone, somehow, somewhere.

Love,
Efrem

.
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Scooper (admin)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 8:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry about the apparent stereotype, Efrem, but the actual post-op individual I knew characterized herself as being suicidal when she was a man - for the reason you state, that she could not be her true self.

And yes, I was referring to 'straight' folk being uncomfortable with gender different people. I was casually acquainted with another post-op MTF in recent years. It was not unusual for straights to make less-than-kind remarks about her appearance behind her back, which I discouraged.

Anyway, let me understand. You are a non-op MTF? How do you (what's the correct verb) be that, and how are you finding the experience?
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Efrem (efrem)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 3:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

PooperWrit:

"...But the non-transgendered can be so uncomfortable with that. What's that about?"

Well John, I suppose it's the same reaction that people all over the world have when faced with something/someone different; they usually deride the person/idea/whatever either out of ignorance or because it's hitting "too close to home" and they recognize some repressed element of themselves in the other person/idea/whatever, don't you think? However, with gender diff folks, we get flack from what I call "straight gays" (traditional) also.

It ain't an easy path to follow.

"Anyway, let me understand. You are a non-op MTF? How do you (what's the correct verb) be that, and how are you finding the experience?"

Sorry for the confusion: I think of myself as androgynous, that is that I have a very definite male side and a very definite female side and those two blend a great deal of the time into what is thought of as a "third gender", which is both but neither.

I design/build furniture, so I run power tools, lug 4x8 sheets of plywood around and perform many "manly" tasks. In an accepting work environment my feminine side is very evident, otherwise I do my best to disguise it; something I am less and less willing to do. Which only means there are fewer work opportunities (your average "good ol' boy" woodworker is not very...er..tolerant). So, in answer to your question; personally, I'm quite at ease with who I am. The problem is employment, an essential element in anyone's life.

As far as any "romantic" involvement, I've been celibate for the last several years and have been thinking of becoming a nun or a monk or, perhaps, (considering my androgeny) a "nunk".

This sexuality/gender difference crosses all geo/political/economic/religious lines. For instance, I know of one Yahoo "tranny" group who's membership is made up primarily of automobile mechanics/restorers.

Another group on MSN is made up of bi's who're single, married with kids (wives know or don't know; are supportive or not), and come from every profession you can imagine: doctors, lawyers, salesmen, mechanics, carpenters and military. Most have come to this "exploration" in their 30's and many 15 to 20 years later. This one particular group has 21,000 members; so, how many more are there?

But, I digress: I entered this thread under the "Science" forum because I think of sexuality as a form of social/cultural science that affects everyone.

It would seem, at this point, that you are the only person in this group who's responded with any interest. For that I am grateful and also a bit puzzled.

I suppose I thought there would be a bit more intellectual curiosity from other members, but I guess I was mistaken. I don't think there's anyone on this planet who doesn't have a friend or, at the very least, an acquaintance who's not affected by so-called "sexual/gender dysphoria".

The term "dysphoria" rankles me somewhat, because whatever un-ease or discomfort that results in this situation does not generally "originate" with the individual's realization of their "new" identity, but is an "anxiety reaction" imposed from without, by the individual's experience with "exterior" social/work situations.

Well, again, thanks for your interest/response; if you'd like to discuss this further, fine; but, don't feel obligated to extend this discussion if it's not of any real interest.

Love,
Efrem


.




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Richard Adler (r_adler)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 6:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I can't see why 'maleness' and 'femaleness' cannot exist within the same body in allowing both the male and female entity to remain as integral. Right-handed and left-handedness are both as natural as each another in occurence - excepting that the 'cacky handed' were once considered an abomination or the 'work of the devil'. Religious stalwarts often took Biblical injunction to justify beating the living 'crap' out of them. A similar breed of stalwart today certainly views homosexuality, trans/gender/sex or any particular form of androgyne as deviant; these individuals are also both psychologically and physically beaten today (not much changes).

As someone who identifies himself as heterosexual, I guess I can be as big a 'jerk' as anybody; I like women - their femininity along with their breasts. The extent of my character is that I not turn the 'like' into an insatiable appetite. For many, a distinctive male chauvinism is often balanced (tamed even) by the softness of the yielding female - the androgyne could well embody this, giving him/her the 'perfect' form in one body.

It would seem Efrem, as an androgyne, your disposition as being neither male nor female, perhaps makes you nearer to 'Christ' than most.
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Scooper (admin)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 9:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Efrem,

So as a celibate androgyne, the experience is more about "being" that about "loving" or "lusting," I presume.

I was just thinking how much easier "being" is when you have a set of pre-packaged (and pre-approved) "ways to be" presented to you by your culture. One can have the illusion that "being" is a passive thing, that just happens. I ask you if, for a person like yourself, "being" is a much more active thing, in that you must actively find or invent ways to "be" that express your different nature(s)?

Also, BTW, as a furniture designer-maker, can you freelance? Or was that in the pre-bust economy?
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Efrem (efrem)
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Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 6:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

RichardWrit:

"I can't see why 'maleness' and 'femaleness' cannot exist within the same body in allowing both the male and female entity to remain as integral. Right-handed and left-handedness are both as natural as each another in occurence - excepting that the 'cacky handed' were once considered an abomination or the 'work of the devil'."

You made my day Richard; I haven't heard or read the term "cacky handed" since my childhood. My mother was left handed, she was also a stutterer.

I remember asking my grandmother why mother stuttered so, and she said that until my mother started school she spoke like any other child. However, once she was in grade school (in the mid-19teens) and began learning how to write, the teacher made her write with her right hand and otherwise began trying to 'break' her of her left handedness.

This seems to have produced the stuttering that remained with my mother til her dying day. Eventually, she did go back to using her left hand and even stuttered less as time went by; but the basic stuttering effect remained.


I hope you won't take offense, however, when I suggest that your analogy of "handedness" and the duality of gender in the psyche is somewhat amiss.

These days, the natural use of one hand over the other or its denial is hardly an identity threatening, homocidal or suicidal inducing situation; whereas expresssion of, or denial of, 'core' self that is gender specific is often conducive to all of those outcomes.

Even before I began coming to terms with my own gender ID, I rationalized the 'oneness' of all things as being the result of the "Godhead's"/"Spirit's"/"Force's" creation.

That is to say, that since the originating Force created all of these 'things' (trees, rocks, black, white, red, grass, water, etc.), all of these 'things' had to have a certain 'capacity' within the Originator. I believe the same to be true of gender (and so do a lot of religions/philosophies).

As for, "I can't see why 'maleness' and 'femaleness' cannot exist within the same body in allowing both the male and female entity to remain as integral." I think the explanation for that is self evident given the treatment of gender different folks by heterosexuals off and on through the millenia.

I agree with you that, just as a person who's the result of two races joining and having offspring should be accepted (my assumption of your words), all people should be accepted simply by virtue of their 'existence'; that is, until they prove themselves unworthy of acceptance.

FutterPooperWrit:

"So as a celibate androgyne, the experience is more about "being" that about "loving"or "lusting," I presume."

Yes, John; just like your 'experience' is as a heterosexual, except I'm celibate; something a lot of folks, no matter what orientation, are not.

When I first began 'coming out' it was much like the puberty we all go through at age 12 or 13; that is, it was so wonderful finally beginning to find my 'self' that I was like a kid in a candy store.

But after a few years of infatuation and gradual maturation in my new 'mode', I came back to some semblance of 'normalcy'.

Currently, as I said earlier, I'm celibate, as I've never been much of a promiscuous person even while 'posing' as a heterosexual; which is not to say I'm 'frigid', because I'm certainly not; I'm just a bit more 'circumspect' than I was in the 'early days' of my liberation; and have more realistic (I think) expectations of any supposed lover or love life, just as any 'normal' person might.

"I was just thinking how much easier "being" is when you have a set of pre-packaged (and pre-approved) "ways to be" presented to you by your culture...."

I assume you're speaking of being born into the world as a male or female and following the 'gender map' for your identity that's been laid out by others who've gone before. Yes, it is nice, but for some, it's vexing as they realize that there is 'more'. The same 'trap', however, is there for gender different people; and that is the trap of thinking of ourselves as having to 'choose' between one of the extremes (male/female) of the gender spectrum/continuum.

"Also, BTW, as a furniture designer-maker, can you freelance? Or was that in the pre-bust economy?"

I do still have my shop, and I do still freelance; but, since the 'Blessings of Bush' many small shops and some larger than mine have closed. I hang in by doing work with one or two other shops and am currently doing some 'handyman' work. (Anything to keep my head above water and my legs outta the tree tops...., unnerstand?)

"...I ask you if, for a person like yourself, "being" is a much more active thing, in that you must actively find or invent ways to "be" that express your different nature(s)?"

Not really..., "I yam what I yam....." and I am that regardless...; it comes out because that's the way "I am". Just like with your 'self', John; 'cept with femme guys, it's a bit more 'problematic'.

RichardWrit:

"It would seem Efrem, as an androgyne, your disposition as being neither male nor female, perhaps makes you nearer to 'Christ' than most."

I hope I answered that 'perception' earlier in this post. If I haven't answered it to your satisfaction, all I can say Richard is that that job is taken.

Besides...., 'Most' what!?

Love,
Efrem

.





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Richard Adler (r_adler)
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Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 8:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Besides...., 'Most' what!? "

...Most anybody who considers themselves totally male or wholly female - whether hormonally, psychologically or dispositionaly. On balance, one often over-rides the other but never completely.

My point on left-handed/right-handedness was not on the gravity of outcomes but a comparison of judgements made in two differing generations. We now see the absurdity of condemning the left-handed as we now are coming to see all 'gender types' as equal; with no one, on that basis, deserving condemnation.
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Scooper (admin)
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Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 10:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just saw "A Mighty Wind," a wickedly funny "mockumentary" of the Folk Music scene. However, they threw in a bit of mockery at the end directed toward the transgendered. Thoughts anyone?
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Efrem (efrem)
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Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 4:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I enjoyed, and have known black folk who enjoyed, the Amos and Andy shows.

I also appreciated the humor of Stanley Myron Handleman and Myron Cohen.

I have also known TG's, Gays and other gender/sexual different folks who would just as soon pull your face off as to allow any humor toward them, particularly by 'straight' people.

My own personal view is that humor is one of the few things that helps us all get through this 'great veil of tears' with our sanity even partially intact.

What matters, what makes the humor acceptable or not, is whether it's malicious. I haven't seen the 'A Mighty Wind' but understand it's by the same bunch of crazies that made 'Spinal Tap'. Given that, I can only assume there is no actual agenda of HATE behind their looniness.

That said, the only other caution, is that taken too far and with too much frequency, humor toward any particular group might allow some particularly vicious crazies in the world to come to the conclusion that it's alright to belittle/demean/mistreat people who are 'different'.

Love,
Efrem
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Richard Adler (r_adler)
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Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 10:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The following should not be seen as a condemnation of a 'condition' but more as an answer giving cause:
"..With regard to whether homosexuals are 'born' or 'made', even without the ability to explain the human condition and thus defend the corrupted state of humans (ie explain that humans' various states of corruption are not 'bad' or evil but are in fact immensely heroic states), a decade-long research project completed at the Institute for Sex Research in Bloomington, Indiana, found that, 'a quarter of the gays interviewed believe [are prepared to acknowledge?] homosexuality is an emotional disorder' (Time mag. l7 JuIy 1978). In his 1992 book, Health & Survival in the 21st Century, Ross Home referred to studies that show, 'That the highest incidence of homosexuality coincides with the general level of stressful influences in a community and that the lowest incidence coincides with the degree of happiness and health in remote and unstressed populations indicates that, like many conditions of physical disease, it is just as unnatural as the mental breakdowns, depression and neuroses so common in civilization. Studies of primitive natives reveal that while in some populations homosexuality is non-existent or rare, in other populations it is fairly common; but the same pattern still holds - among the placid, happy, untroubled people homosexuality did not occur, while among fighting tribes and headhunters it did' (p.206). After 25 years of clinical experience helping homosexual men and women, Dr Robert Kronemeyer of New York concluded that, 'Homosexuality is a symptom of neurosis
and of a grievous personality disorder. It is an outgrowth of deeply rooted emotional deprivations and disturbances that had their origins in infancy' - Species in Denial
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Efrem (efrem)
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Posted on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 6:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think more information is required on the background of the doctors mentioned, their particular "agendas", the "primitive tribes" that were studied specifically and much, much more before any credence can be given to these "reports".

As a homosexual, I find it a bit tiresome to have heterosexuals throw out ambiguous/abstract information without any background information. It's a bit like me offering an explanation of the cause of heterosexuality; it's accepted as the norm only because het's control society; in fact, heterosexuality may be an aberration...., there, how do you like them apples?

Right now, there's a raging debate going on in Trans circles concerning the validity of a book that was written suggesting other explanations of transgenderism vs autogynephilia and femme gays vs non femme gays. For you or anyone to just lop something like this out on this or any other forum as though it represents the "final word" on anything is completely ridiculous. It's like saying Aids is caused by gays and letting it go at that!!

.




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Richard Adler (r_adler)
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Posted on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 5:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Efrem, Unless the research undertaken was homophobically based I find hard to see another agenda, whether hidden or otherwise, apart from a basis to objectively reveal a cause.

To say 'het's' control society shows a 'hetrophobic' view of things - there's far more to the human psyche than sexuality.

I don't consider anything written here as 'the final word', so why should you?

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Efrem (efrem)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 12:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"....Unless the research undertaken was homophobically based I find hard to see another agenda, whether hidden or otherwise,..."

Oh..., okay; I did a simple search of Kronomeyer and Beiber just to see what sort of sights are associated with their 40 & 50 year old "research"; the list of links follows, all are associated with jewish or christian fundamentalist sites with at least one on Reparative Therapy (a largely discounted approach these days by all but those of the "Falwellian" influence).

Peruse at your leisure:

http://www.hci-online.com/rkronomeyer

http://www.e-ssentialhealthnetwork.com/page.cfm/94

http://texnews.com/opinion97/cal082197.html

http://thekansan.com/stories/112598/vie_1125980016.html

http://www.redeemedlives.org/Resources/atcls/truth2.htm

http://www.higherpraise.com/outlines/col/col_11.htm

http://www.ewm.org/archives/000011.html

http://www.jonahweb.org/html/library-clinicalissuesgriefwork.phtml

http://secure.worldpub.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&DS_ID=3&Product_ID=2332&DID=6

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Efrem (efrem)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 12:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh..., by the way "Syntonic Therapy" has been around since the '20's and was not developed by Dr. K. as is claimed.
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Richard Adler (r_adler)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 5:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmm...You're a busy man Efrem.

I would determine many of the sites listed don't quite fall into a 'Fundamentalistic' cateorgory. There are, however, one or two - here's a quote from one (The Redeemer Lives site):
".. The third type is probably the most dangerous. They know redemption from homosexuality is a biblical reality. But they are caught up in church structures bonded to the second group of shepherds. They suggest that in order to be an inclusive church, we have to honor the "traditional liberal" viewpoint on this subject. What they call "tradition" the apostles and church fathers called "heresy." This third group builds bridges to the second group, afraid to say to them, "You are outside the biblical world view and therefore outside the church. Integrating homosexuality and Christianity is heresy." In one context they affirm the ministry of redemption for the homosexual, but in another they make room for "gay Christians."

They make good argument, one with which I incidentally disagree with; nevertheless their logic would make good sense to many (if not, most) 'practicing Christians'.
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Efrem (efrem)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 6:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It has not been my experience as an androgyne, that "practicing Christians" are very "accepting" of anything but what has been writ grudgingly by their pastors and elders so that they may draw more financial support from a general community.

If you think the links I sent do not point to a definite religious bias/support of Dr's K&B, then I have nothing more to say to you. If you seriously think this sort of dribble is worth any serious consideration by thinking people, I have nothing more to say to you; 50 years ago, it was blacks who were in need of redemption by the White Heterosexual Christian Church, the black folk finally said, "Enough is enough! God don't make mistakes, blacks belong here like anybodyelse; whites need redemption for their 'evilness'".

What you're seeing now is another movement along the same lines, whether you want to 'see' it or not, and your silly, patronizing "Honkiness" won't save you; someday an androgynous Inuit is going to move into your neighborhood and put "the moves" on your son or daughter....,

Hide, Honky...Hide!!!
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Richard Adler (r_adler)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 7:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Erem, It seems your generally narrow veiw of Christians incapacitates any real understanding you might gain as to where they're actually coming from.

The 'association' some sites might have to Fundamentalism does not make them in themselves Fundamentalistic. I've learnt one should not judge singularly by any one association but by the many and varied associations one might have.

If any person were to make an unwanted 'move' of a sexual nature on my son or daughter I would expect the law to treat the intruder as predatorial.
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Tracy Hartford (letah)
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Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 11:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

“I was just thinking how much easier "being" is when you have a set of pre-packaged (and pre-approved) "ways to be" presented to you by your culture. One can have the illusion that "being" is a passive thing, that just happens. I ask you if, for a person like yourself, "being" is a much more active thing, in that you must actively find or invent ways to "be" that express your different nature(s)?”

I know this comment was not directed at me, but I would like to respond to it, because it is something that I have been dealing with extensively as I’ve explored bisexuality, and feminism. I was raised to be a feminine Christian female. My goal in life was to serve God, get married, and have children. Or at least those were my most important goals. It was, in retrospect, fairly easy to be Tracy within those perimeters. My exploration of my bisexual feelings began when I stopped hiding the fact that my husband was not the only one who had trouble not looking at scantily clad women at pools, in ads, or strutting across campus on a hot summer day. In fact, the reason why I felt he was too hard on himself about his struggles was that I had always looked, and didn’t try very hard not to. My feelings had always been conscious, but it was as if I just refused to acknowledge them. I knew, but pretended I didn’t, I guess. Or maybe I just never realized what all the little things meant, because I was a girl, and girls are attracted to boys. I was also confused, because at the time I didn’t consider bisexuality. I thought that my feelings must mean I was a lesbian, and I was unwilling to admit such a thing, because I was deeply in love with my husband, and I enjoyed our sex life. It was actually my husband who proposed the label of bisexuality, saving me from my identity crisis of who I was supposed to be, feeling as I did. It didn’t solve all my confusion, though. I wondered what it meant for a bisexual to be married to one person of one sex. I finally came to the conclusion that because I was fairly equally attracted to both sexes, that there was no difference between them for me, so there was one big pool of individuals for me to choose from, and I had chosen someone who happened to be male.

Questioning the heterosexism I grew up with eventually led me to inspect my gender identity. I have always been pretty feminine. Although I fancy myself as being tough, I know that is more fancy than fact. The truth is, gender is about social norms. As I have explored feminism, I have questioned why I should wear makeup when men don’t. But then there’s the part of me that was raised female that enjoys dressing up. There is the part of me that was raised believing my highest contribution would be to raise babies, and there’s the part of me that knows I am a talented, intelligent being who could contribute even more than that. So do I base the way I express my personality on the way I feel (feminine), or what I feel is right (androgyny). This is a quandary I have yet to solve, and it has been a very active process, especially because I was taught early on to be who I was expected to be. Rejecting that philosophy and finding out who I want to be is still something I’m learning to do, as well.
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Efrem (efrem)
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Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 1:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Welcome Tracy or Letah
(whichever you prefer),

I began this thread sometime ago in the hopes of inspiring some discussion about what I've found to be a basic core element of any individual's persona, ie, their sexuality/gender identification. To me it's a fascinating study and one that can absorb perhaps too much of one's time. As far as I'm concerned, it's not just another element; it is THE element of our being that determines the rest of our interaction with the world. It has less to do with who you're intimate with or how often, than how your identification processes influence your world view and your reaction to others on an individual day to day basis.

Richard was correct earlier, when he said there was more to a person than sexuality; there is indeed more, but I believe that "more" is greatly influenced, as I said, by your basic core gender id. (That's id, not ID).

Once again, welcome; I hope you'll post often. Your insights to your journey thus far are appreciated and understood.

Love,
Efrem

.
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Richard Adler (r_adler)
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Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 5:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A certain political correctness of the day has asserted the male and female psyche are 'made to order' rather than born 'with'. In other words it is supposedly more about pre-conditioning i.e. give a 'bloke' a doll when he's two and a 'broad' a truck at similar age and hey! Presto with a bit of further reinforcement, we have a role-reversal! The same argument, however, is not always applied by this same 'political correctness' when given to non-heterosexual orientations. It seems this double standard becomes more a case of, born and not made - no gender bending in this instance, just a case of simple gender per se. It seems the association of 'guilt', 'sin', 'deviation' or however you term it is lessened or if not, removed, by being born that way (and therefore given) rather than arrived at through psychological acquisition. The logic implies that if a gene causative of murder, rape or hate is discovered then the criminal becomes abrogated of any real responsibility.

Our political correctness is right in saying it is not wrong to be homosexual but arrives there through a false logic. My observation is, at least 90% of the population have always been heterosexual - the remaining 10% of 'other' are a combination of having been born that way or have been influenced to be 'that way'. Male and female is what we (humans) basically are - it is merely 'abnormal' to be 'other' and not wrong. Homosexuality whether apparent in females or males does not lessen an ability for the nurturing and integrity of the person to remain intact. It is only through the restraint and disciplining of our desires we can be aware of and therefore to offer, the care and concern to another in their need.

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Efrem (efrem)
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Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 4:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sometime ago, in beginning this thread, I mentioned in response to someone's message that there was a lot of "tumult" in the alternative sexuality community about what was being represented and argued about transexuals, transgendered, autogynephiliacs and other gender different folks by some in the "scientific" community.

The following link represents a resolution to a few of those differences. I won't go into the origin of the "differences" involved, those who have sufficient interest will know, have an interest in and conduct their own further research for clarification;

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/IASRmessage.html

Love,
Efrem


.
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Tracy Hartford (letah)
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Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 10:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Aahhh... the nature vs. nurture issue. I won't call it a "debate" because most academics would agree that both genetics and environment influence behavior. However, as Efrem says, it is a fascinating study that can can consume a huge amount of time. Probably because it is so complex, and because there is so much variability from person to person. Yes, sexual reproduction only works between fertile males and females. However, does that really mean that homosexual sex is abnormal? Obviously, the purpose is not for reproduction. I guess the question is whether sex only for pleasure is abnormal. Most species are not sexually receptive throughout the reproductive cycle. Humans are. So could it be that humans are abnormal as compared to more than 90% of Earth's species? I know that I am stretching reality, but my point is that the "un-natural" argument makes some assumptions that often go unscrutinized.

Thanks for the welcome back,

Tracy
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Richard Adler (r_adler)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 6:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sexual reproduction can actually occur outside of the human environment (a la test tube babies). What is relevant to the psyche of any developing human is in its nurture. The defining of family is often used as the basis for this nurture. The current Roman Catholic argument is one involving the ultimate definition or form of marriage. The coupling of heterosexuals in wedlock, they say, is the only legitimate or 'natural' form of 'family' in which to nurture children. One thing is for certain, the real growth and protection of the child cannot occur outside of a lasting commitment - in this ultimate sense we are aberrant from the animal kingdom. Our level falls beneath that of animals when we do not or cannot bother to properly raise our own. A particular sexual orientation should not deprive us of this creative skill.

The Peter Singer argument, which places us as well developed primates, will show us as highly abnormal in many respects when viewed alongside other species. Animals generally attempt to destroy what their instincts reveal as abnormal or a threat. We go beyond this and unreasonably destroy all we hate; our appetites and pleasures are seldom satisfied (doomsday morality?). We wander the earth and take our pleasure (quite legit) but find no rest.

For us, however, it is not in the defining of abnormality we make judgement, but as to how we embrace it. Utilitarianism (Singer) seeks perfection and happiness; it seeks to destroy all abnormality and suffering and will coldly slay all it detests (as did Hitler). By this, Man is reduced to no more than the supreme governing primate or ape - in truth, however, his level is far greater; his is a purpose for creation, beyond destruction. It is a humility not yet realised.
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Efrem
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Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 3:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Adam and Eve VS. Adam and Steve...,

Okay..., here's what I think:

In order for one of us humans to 'create' something we have to have some consciousness of what it is we want to create. Some 'empathy' of understanding of the 'whatever-it-is's' being is necessary before it can be made into 'something'.

How can it be less for 'God'.

GOD, who is generally thought of in the masculine by most 'major' religions, created Adam. God made what he first thought was his finest creation as an 'image' of Himself; made'im outta dirt like a farmer playing in the field. God made Adam. Masculine God made Himself in finite form. It was, in a manner of speaking, "Adam and Steve"; Steve being God of course.

So...., there was Adam; Adam mucking around in this paradise created by his partner Steve (whatelse can you call it but a 'partnership' since there was nothingelse around to compare their relationship to....?). God saw that, since his partner Adam was finite and had no real way of relating to his surroundings because he had no way of giving or receiving feedback to his daily 'comings and goings', God saw that Adam needed a companion, some 'thing' that would compliment his existence and would enable procreation of their 'kind' without any further meddling on God's part. This other 'thing' had to be able to develop life in some way, nurture it and contribute to it's well being.

Had God just made another male it wouldn't've worked; this new thing had to have it's own attributes that would benefit all concerned. It had to share the same qualities God had already introduced when Adam was created but accentuate those qualities that were shared by "Adam and Steve" and take them one step further: in short, this new thingie had to be a more 'female'/'feminine' presence.

To do this, God had/has to have a feminine sensibility/awareness.

True..., some of the descendants of this original feminine, earthly sensibility have demonstrated a bit more 'masculinity' than was origninally intended (Bodicea, Lizzie Borden and Margaret Thatcher come to mind), but the basic model was/is in place.

I truly believe that God is androgynous. God is also a rock, a feather and a bit of spittle.

LOve,
Jenn
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Beelzebub
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Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 7:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Jenn!

Just felt like riffing off of your thought above: in some sects of Buddhism they meditate on the concept of God as pile of dog poop (which gives our website mascot a whole new meaning, let me tell ya!) Certainly God has no PROBLEM with feces, urine, vomit, bile, mucous, semen, vaginal lube, menstrual flow, ad nauseum, because God created all of them. (I sometimes wonder if REALLY teaching about God shouldn't be X-rated!)

Similarly, the God who created the dolphin, the baboon and the bonobo has NO problem with non-reproductive sexuality!!!

ciao bella!
Beelzy
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Efrem
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Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 5:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For the vast majority of people on this planet no matter their religion, if there is a "God" figure involved we are inculcated from a very early age to think of It in human terms assigning a gender of some kind to describe its presence. In the year 2005, we are still thinking of this Entity and describing it in terms used by folks 4,000 years ago and beyond in their understanding of the Controllers of lightning, thunder, fire and just about any other 'fearsome' but natural occurence.

I think, also, that no matter how 'sophisticated', 'urbane' or 'atheistic' individuals become, they never quite shake that phantom image father figure Godhead from their psychis.

I think "God" is far more complex and pervasive than our puny finite imaginations can fathom.

I used the image of rocks and spittle and so forth but yours Beelzy are just as valid though not understandably acceptable as 'teaching tools'; but, yes, God is within and without every thing/body/spirit/thought and I have many miles to go before I sleep.

LOve,
Jenn
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Beelzebub
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Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 8:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Jenn!

One of the attractions (for me) of Vajrayana Buddhism is precisely that they DO use things like this for teaching purposes (along with meditating in cemetaries and such). The purpose is to knock the student loose from his/her preconceived notions about God and/or reality. I much prefer it to the American tendency to bowdlerize God (the 'Disney', or 'G-rated', version of God, as I call it), which I think does more harm than good.

Intrestingly, the original Israelite injunction against portraying God in iconic form is probably one of the first instances of attempting to refrain from delimiting God, to refrain from pigeonholing God as a particular being, allowing God to remain ineffable and incomprehensible.

ciao!
Beelzy
"And we'll dance through our isolation
Seeking solace in the wisdom we bestow" - DCD
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AndroJenn
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Username: efrem

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Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 9:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Beelzy sez:
..."And we'll dance through our isolation
Seeking solace in the wisdom we bestow" - DCD

Ummmm..., who's 'DCD'?

"I am he as you are he
as you are me and we are all together..." - JL

LOve,
Jenn
Nearly all men can stand adversity but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.-Abe Lincoln
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Beelzebub
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Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 9:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Jenn!

DCD = Dead Can Dance, an avant garde 'rock' group that mixed elements of world, new age, medieval, and ancient music into a style I like to call 'gothic' (not to be confused with 'goth'). They were composed of the duo Brendan Perry and Lisa Gerrard, with accompanying musicians in and out. Lisa (my fave) has gone on to do a lot of work on film scores. She did Whale Rider and The Insider (with Pieter Bourke) and collaborated with Hans Zimmer on Gladiator.

Primo stuff! I especially recommend their albums Spleen & Ideal, Aion and Toward the Within!

ciao!
Beelzy
"And we'll dance through our isolation
Seeking solace in the wisdom we bestow" - DCD
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Barbara-Marie Drezhlo
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Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 1:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello all!!

As a rather contented post-op MTF,I do NOT think of myself as transgendered at all. I have an excellent relationship with a fellow (we are planning marriage,and YES,he DOES know), been accepted in a local parish, and basically live live a blah and ORDINARY life. THAT is what I signed up for,and that IS what I recieved. As for surgery and the whole HRT regimen,it is rqather uninteresting and dull. I was up and about 2 days after surgery, was never in any pain (some slight discomfort,though),and there was NEVER any danger to my life. In fact,one could even call the whole experience quite yawn-inducing. I know that this is NOT what either the extremists of the both the left and the right wish to hear, but let's be honest, transsexuality is a rather uninteresting medical phenomenom now. I ttok my pills,had my surgery,and my life is vastly improved, thank you VERY much. And as to those who would purport to speak for me without my consent (especially 'transgenderists'): GET A REAL LIFE!!

As for everyone else: Come on over,I'll pour the wine, you can throw the steaks over the fire, and let God sort out all the rest. Z bogom!!
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AndroJenn
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Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 3:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Barbara-Marie sez:
"As a rather contented post-op MTF,I do NOT think of myself as transgendered at all. I have an excellent relationship with a fellow (we are planning marriage,and YES,he DOES know), been accepted in a local parish, and basically live live a blah and ORDINARY life. ..."

Well...., GREAT GOBBLEDY GOOP GOOP !!! Welcome girl!!! I'm AndroJenn and I'm androgynous and am the one who started this thread. You have NO idea how lonely it can get around here being the only gender variant on the list !!! Most of the folks here are civil and a few are downright friendly. I hope you'll join right in and give us more of your perspectives if you care to...., otherwise, why'd you join up?

Anyway, "Happy Marriage" and...., "Keep on Truckin'"!

LOve,
Jenn
Nearly all men can stand adversity but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.-Abe Lincoln
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Beelzebub
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Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 6:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Babs!

Welcome to the blog of the blind bow-wow! I'm one of the friendly ones.

At least I think I'm one of the friendly ones. Wait! Let me check my membership card! Hmmm....says here 'FRDLY'. That could mean friendly! Of course, it could also mean Freudly (as opposed to Jungly & Reichly). Or Fordly (as opposed to GMly & Chryslerly)Heck, I suppose it could even mean fraudly! Yikes!

Hey Jenn! Help me out here! Am I a friendly or a fraudly? ;-)

ciao!
Beelzy
"And we'll dance through our isolation
Seeking solace in the wisdom we bestow" - DCD
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Barbara-Marie Drezhlo
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Posted on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 10:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Unfortunately, the only TS's that the general public gets to see are cartoonish sorts who populate the talk shows on the telly. There is an advantage to THAT though. Since 95% of us have transitioned smoothly, no one figures out the reality. Quite frankly, I have no desire to explain myself and my actions to the entire world. That is QUITE exhibitionist, is it not?

People do NOT understand the medical nature of the condition. One recieves one's hormones, undergoes surgery, and the outside world is NOT the wiser. Of course, if one wishes to be a noodnik and broadcast all to all and sundry, that is their problem.

Yes, there is discrimination. Most of it comes as a result of the loud actions of transgenderists. Put a sock in it, please. I could not be happier living a dull, ordinary life-it is what I signed up for. Also, I am not 'closeted'. Of all people, I am the one least to be categorized as living in a musty, dank, and airless closet. If you wish to 'expose' yourself on the corner of 42nd and 7th, that is your prerogative. Count me out!

(Have I offended everyone, Beelzebub? Rats, there are forgiving sorts out there!)

I keep you all in my thoughts and prayers.
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Beelzebub
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Posted on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 7:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Barbara-Marie!

You said "Have I offended everyone, Beelzebub?" Huh? Not that I know of. Did you think you had? Has anyone here offended you? (I now feel thoroughly confused!)

ciao!
Beelzy
"And we'll dance through our isolation
Seeking solace in the wisdom we bestow" - DCD
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Barbara-Marie Drezhlo
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Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 7:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My Dearest Beelzy:

NO one offends me. Some are tiresome, and some are dreary and weary, and yet others are windy bombasts. My experience has taught me that some TS's are just SO monomanical and obsessed with their life histories. As for me, I am a quite straightforward and direct sort, and if THAT offends, so be it! The point of the medical treatment is to allow me to live a VERY ordinary and unexceptional life, which is what HAS occured. BTW, sir Beelzy, you seem like a rather interesting sort, yourself. Details in future perhaps? Keep me in your thoughts and prayers, sir. I remain, as ever,

Your on-line friend in the Risen Christ,
Barbara-Marie
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Beelzebub
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Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 6:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ohhhhhhh!

You were refering to other TS's you'd met! Whew! I thought we here at the Internet Iglesia of the Visually-Challenged Vittles-dog had offended YOU! I'm relieved to find we hadn't.

Moi? Gee, not much to tell. Just your average, run-of-the-mill OrthoCatholic, CoptoProtestant, AgnosticApostolic, UnitarianUniversalist, EcumenicalEvangelical, TranscendentalTheosophical, ThelemicCharismatic, ZoroastrianDiscordian, HermeticKemetic, HumanisticSpiritualistic, GnosticAtheistic, SatanicMessianic, DruidicTalmudic, PhilosophicalEpiscopal, WiccanRosicrucian, ZenTaoist, ShintoShamanist, VajraTantra, BoddhiDharma, BhaktiShakti, YogiSufi, VoodooBaha'i, Neo-Pagan, Pantheistic HebraeoMuslim CryptoChristoPunk advocate of the joys of polygamy, the social value of hard erotica, and the existensial philosophy of cartoons.

See? Dullsville.

cheers!
Beelzy
"And we'll dance through our isolation
Seeking solace in the wisdom we bestow" - DCD
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Gregg Lewis
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Registered: 7-2005
Posted on Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 10:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi everybody. Just got back from surgery to remove a kidney stone (make sure none of you ever have to do that!) and now can't sleep because of one of the drugs I had - having really weird visions of things like fur on my toothbrush instead of bristles, etc. Anyway, am a bit lost in the acronyms and vocab. here. Not really interested in joining the discussion but do want to follow what's going on. What's MTF and HRT and TS and Jenn, what would be the difference between being androgynous and bisexual? Beelz, I finally read to the end of your religion and was wondering what the social value of hard erotica was? Seems to me to get us from reality to fantasy - kind of like fur on toothbrushes. Is that good?

Thanks for your patience with me and Barbara the steaks and wine sound like a great idea.

Tokomonana,

Gregg
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AndroJenn
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Username: efrem

Post Number: 211
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 4:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Greggie sez:
"...What's MTF and HRT and TS and Jenn, what would be the difference between being androgynous and bisexual?..."

Thanks for asking (many folks just assume all queers are the same and crossdressers are representative of all gender variants).

MtF is 'Male to Female' transitioning; FtM is Female to Male transitioning; TS is Transexual; TG is Transgender; Crossdressers are often simply enamoured of 'female dress' and are heterosexual.

Androgyny is similar to bisexuality only in that, physically, one is open to intimacies with either sex if one so chooses; emotionally and from a psychological base however, one identifies in a very real way with both gender polarities and often neither. It's a kind of 'meshing' of feminine and masculine identities that goes a bit beyond, but also includes sexuality.

androgyne.0catch.com/

LOve,
Jenn (who's not at all convinced she explained androgyny clearly; but, what the heck, it's only my first cup of coffee)
Nearly all men can stand adversity but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.-Abe Lincoln
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AndroJenn
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Username: efrem

Post Number: 212
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 4:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh..., and HRT is 'Hormone Replacement Therapy', a treatment many transexuals and some transgendered folk receive in an effort toward making their outside match their inside.

LOve,
Jenn
Nearly all men can stand adversity but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.-Abe Lincoln
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Beelzebub
Senior Member
Username: beelzebub

Post Number: 84
Registered: 7-2005
Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 5:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Gregg!

Ouch! Hope you feel better soon. Make sure you don't pet your toothbrush nor use the cat to brush your teeth!

Re: your question. I believe that erotica (or pornography, whichever you prefer to call it, one person's erotica being another's porn) serves several very valid social purposes. First, and foremost, it confronts us with sexuality face to face. Anything that refuses to allow us to repress our sexuality is a good thing. It's repression that leads to psychopathy, rather than healthy exercise.

Second, it specifically confronts us with the REALITY of our fantasies, rather than the absurd FANTASY that is our sexual reality. In other words, it says "Whatever you may be actually getting......this is what you REALLY want." It's up front and in our face about what's going on in our hindbrains. It doesn't pretty it up. Again it serves to prevent us from repressing our desires.

Third, despite the strident vociferousness of the religious 'morals' organizations, the availability of erotica/pornography is directly correlated to significant drops in the crime rate, especially the violent crime rate, and most especially the sexual crime rate. The rise of internet porn proliferation is directly correlated with an across-the-board drop in the crime rates in the US. Looking outside the US, Japan has the one of the easiest levels of access to erotica/pornography of any industrial power (and particularly violent stuff too!) and yet one of the lowest crime rates (especially sexual crimes). Hard erotica/pornography acts as a safety valve, allowing those who might otherwise act out their fantasies to blow off steam.

Fourth, when recovering from surgery or illness, it can reawaken your joie de vivre! Wink, wink. Nudge, nudge. ;-)

ciao!
Beelzy
"And we'll dance through our isolation
Seeking solace in the wisdom we bestow" - DCD
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Barbara-Marie Drezhlo
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Username: damevara

Post Number: 5
Registered: 7-2005
Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 5:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello all!

It appears some life has been poured into this particular old wineskin! That is to say, there probably have NOT been this many posts in this dicussion for quite some time!

But again, I am NOT comfortable with the phrase 'gender-variant', it implies that MY sexuality is somehow not NORMAL, therefore it is PERVERTED. Again, I do NOT engage in 'before-and-after' speculation, rather, I see my life as one seamless continuum. I did NOT suddenly decide one day that I 'was a woman'. That is simple-minded and beyond all comphrehension. The medical treatment merely changed physical structures so that my complete self was now in congruence, not dissidence.

Of course, too much of what is written on gender dysphoria has been penned by unlettered activists and charlatan 'psychologists' who call themselves (gasp!!) 'gender specialists'. PLEASE DO SPARE ME. I am NOT a member of some nebulous 'Third Sex', rather I am a rather ordinary and fun-loving middle-aged woman (I am 51, and I do NOT care who knows it!) who would NOT change a thing in her life. SO THERE!! One of those shrinks even said to me that I has 'unresolved issues'. Perhaps they did NOT care for it when I said, 'I pay you, you do not pay me, ergo, you are my employee. And what I am paying for is a psychological profile for surgery, not analysis'. You can GUESS the reaction.

As I was approved for surgery, one can readily see that the psychologist is not only the least important person in the TS medical regimen, they know the least. Beware of any such who try to 'inform' you. 'Keep your pecker up', as the Brits say, AND GIVE THEM BOTH BARRELS AND NO QUARTER!!

I hope that all of you are well (especially Beelzy and AndroJenn), and I keep the the whole crazy lot of you in my prayers, and ask that you all do the same.

I remain, as ever,
your (crazy) loving sister in the risen Christ,
Barbara-Marie Drezhlo
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AndroJenn
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Username: efrem

Post Number: 213
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 6:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Barbara-Marie sez:
"As a rather contented post-op MTF,I do NOT think of myself as transgendered at all. ... As for surgery and the whole HRT regimen,it is rqather uninteresting and dull. I was up and about 2 days after surgery, was never in any pain (some slight discomfort,though),and there was NEVER any danger to my life. In fact,one could even call the whole experience quite yawn-inducing. I know that this is NOT what either the extremists of the both the left and the right wish to hear, but let's be honest, transsexuality is a rather uninteresting medical phenomenom now. ... And as to those who would purport to speak for me without my consent (especially 'transgenderists'): GET A REAL LIFE!!"

Well..., it's certainly good that you don't think of yourself as 'transgendered' because, while transexuality (which is what your HRT/operation suggests) falls under the general umbrella of "Transgenderism" (as in moving or adjusting one's outer self to match what's seen within), it certainly is not what is normally thought of as transgendered.

I'm very happy for you that your operation was so 'uneventful' and all 'systems are go'; that's always a good outcome of any journey 'under the knife'. However, some folks of my acquaintence haven't faired quite so well with varying degrees of initial discomfort and adjustment.

Also, transexuality and the gender ID question may be 'uninteresting' to you but it certainly isn't to many other people as there are a great many folks grappling with their gender identities daily.

Besides, if you were as unimpressed with it all and as contented with your present situation as you suggest, why even bring it up as your intro to this list and then 'fish' for whether or not you'd offended anyone by doing so? Why not just come on board as the contented woman you are without even mentioning your previous status?

"...But again, I am NOT comfortable with the phrase 'gender-variant', it implies that MY sexuality is somehow not NORMAL,..."

I would never presume to speak for you and I would appreciate the favor returned. If you don't care for the term 'gender variant', fine..., don't use it; I use it (as do many others) to describe any situation concerning sexuality or gender that seems to veer away from the 'supposed' norms of the gender polarities (whatever they are).

Barbara-Marie, I'm sure you've considered that most of the folks on this list are not familiar with the tumult and chaos in the online 'trans' communities about 'who's what' and 'who's not'; so when you begin your association here by berating 'transgenderists', as you call them, most of the folks here have no idea of the source that may be the cause of your irritation.

As for me, I spent a year or so when I first gained entrance to the internet wading through all of those shouting matches and flame wars in the various groups and finally wearied of them; it eventually started sounding like light skinned blacks and darker skinned blacks hurling racial epithets at each other. I retired from involving myself with that sort of people several years ago and will not indulge in it anymore.

Having said that, I am as stridently anti-PC as you seem to be in some other areas; and, I will not let others dictate my vocabulary simply because it may 'rankle' something in their psyche.

There are words I won't use, not because I think they're horrible words (most words are only horrible because we don't use them enough in pleasant/friendly situations), but because, given the tenor of these times, their use would only deflect from whatever point I would like to make. 'Transgender' and 'gender variant' ain't three of them though.

LOve,
Jenn (who has a REAL LIFE)
Nearly all men can stand adversity but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.-Abe Lincoln
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Beelzebub
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Username: beelzebub

Post Number: 85
Registered: 7-2005
Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 6:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ooooo!

This thread sure is gettin serious. Think I'll jest set back and listen to some Cyn. Ms. Lauper, that is.

"I said, Money, Money changes everythang!" "Grills jest wanna have fu-un!"

smooies to all and sundry!
Beelzy
"And we'll dance through our isolation
Seeking solace in the wisdom we bestow" - DCD
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AndroJenn
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Username: efrem

Post Number: 214
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 6:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Beelzy sez:
"This thread sure is gettin serious. Think I'll jest set back and listen to some Cyn. Ms. Lauper, that is. ..."

Oh...., you boys, always waitin' on some 'cat' fight to start eh?

LOve,
Jenn
Nearly all men can stand adversity but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.-Abe Lincoln
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Beelzebub
Senior Member
Username: beelzebub

Post Number: 86
Registered: 7-2005
Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 7:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, it beats a poke in the eye with a sharp stick! (At least it does until the cats attack you! gulp!)

I'm in an 80's mood tonight.....now playing the B-52's!

ciao bella!
Beelzy
"And we'll dance through our isolation
Seeking solace in the wisdom we bestow" - DCD
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AndroJenn
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Username: efrem

Post Number: 215
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 8:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ummm...., Beelzy,
You might be interested to know that I used to live on Carolina St. on Potrero Hill and still have friends there; take care lest I send big 'Louie' (er..., I think she goes by 'Louise' now) around to make you an offer you can't refuse and then do all manner of vile and disgusting things to your body....(YES! By all that's holy..., even THAT!!)

LOve,
Jenn (a veteran of SF/Berkeley 'Back in th' DAY')
Nearly all men can stand adversity but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.-Abe Lincoln
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Beelzebub
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Username: beelzebub

Post Number: 87
Registered: 7-2005
Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 8:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

AHEM!

And exactly how, pray tell, have I managed to ruffle someone's fur tonight? (Beelzebub is desperately trying to coax as much mileage out of the 'feline' analogy as he can, being too tired to come up with something original.)

Hasta la bye-bye!
Beelzy
"And we'll dance through our isolation
Seeking solace in the wisdom we bestow" - DCD
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Barbara-Marie Drezhlo
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Username: damevara

Post Number: 6
Registered: 7-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 5:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello, especially to Beelzy and Jenn:

This is what we need! Some free and untrammeled discussion without fear of the PC Gestapo! That being said, Jenn, if I have offended you (as I fear I inadvertantly did do), I bow before you and ask your forgiveness of this stumbling sinner. As for you, sir Beelzy, it may interest you to know that my fiancee calls me by the pet name 'Kitty', how's that for keeping life in the old feline metaphor?

Seriously, though, there is a 'script' out there written by radical activists that we transsexuals are 'expected' to follow. THAT is what I object to in the strongest possible terms. A person with gender dysphoria should know that there are other ways of approaching this condition. As for me, I dealt with it always as a medical condition, with no reference to 'therapists' or 'activists'. Perhaps one person out there shall see this and take hope.

Of course, this does lead to the old nature vs. nuture argument, which I shall NOT go into, unless someone else does. Is is a particularly dangerous field dotted liberally with all too many fresh cow pies for all of us to stick our feet into!!

THAT I think is the most dangerous terrain we have to traverse. When one talks about sexuality, one is treading on the most personal and intimate sectors of anyone's life. Unfortunately, there are many misconceptions, usually caused by one rushing to judgment without the full facts. As for myself, I have a nuanced position. As an Orthodox Christian, I do ascribe to the teaching of the Church on human sxuality. But also at the same time, I refuse to judge my fellows, as this is restricted to Almighty God alone. I am under obligation to be Christ-like to all I meet, regardless and always.

This IS a religious site, after all!! If one does not agree, it has to be handled with charity and civility. Caritas is not some sloppy emotion or feeling, it is the calling of all to view our fellows exactly as we view ourselves.

Where is the discussion going? I know not!! That's up to the rest of you. I keep the lot of you, especially Beelzy and Jenn in my thoughts and prayers. I bow before you and ask the same.

I remain, as ever,
your loving and caring sister in the risen Christ,
Barbara-Marie Drezhlo
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Beelzebub
Senior Member
Username: beelzebub

Post Number: 88
Registered: 7-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 6:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Babs!

As has been said many a time before: "Ev'body gots ta do they thang!" One of my biggest complaints against American society is that it tries to box people into types. (Course, we ain't the WORST offending culture in the world on this score, by a long shot!) Let us all hang out, and be ourselves! We're all individuals, let's celebrate our diversity and uniqueness! Hooray for us!

ciao!
Beelzy
"And we'll dance through our isolation
Seeking solace in the wisdom we bestow" - DCD
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Gregg Lewis
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Username: gregg

Post Number: 11
Registered: 7-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 1:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Jenn and Beelzy for the answers to my questions. Beelz I'd like to follow up on the porno discussion. Shall we start a new thread??? How does one do that?

chow!

G
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Beelzebub
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Username: beelzebub

Post Number: 89
Registered: 7-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 5:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Gregg!

Feel free! It'd probably be a great thread! There's a command link on the board that says something like 'Start New Thread', I believe.

ciao!
Beelzy
"And we'll dance through our isolation
Seeking solace in the wisdom we bestow" - DCD
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Carol's Here
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Username: carolelizabeth

Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 7:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Harry Benjamin may have had good intentions, but the psychologists seem to use the Standards of Care to keep people down and paying for a little bit longer before they confirm or deny someones HRT or SRS.
To find a suitable therapist is a long and hard road, especially if you live in fundy central.

The TG community are demonized here and it makes it a dangerous life if you know that there will be a cross smouldering on your front lawn if anyone ever finds out.

As to the online communities, the pecking order kind of makes it unwelcoming, if you are not a "diagnosed" T-Girl, you are beneath many of them. As to the pressure of "passing", why should I?, I am me, not Heidi Klum, I will never pass, but I will always be me inside.
The pressure and pigeonholing of society leads some TGs to commit suicide, mainly because of unreal expectations forced on them by the gender mapping laid out by society.

Shirley Temple I ain't, more like Wicked Wanda, but I look more like Mel Gibson on the outside, which one is right?
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AndroJenn
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Username: efrem

Post Number: 242
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 7:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"...Shirley Temple I ain't, more like Wicked Wanda, but I look more like Mel Gibson on the outside, which one is right?..."
Why 'wicked' dear...?

LOve,
Jenn
Nearly all men can stand adversity but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.-Abe Lincoln
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Carol's Here
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Username: carolelizabeth

Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 7:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am guessing you aren't familiar with a Playboy comic strip from the mid '70's "Oh Wicked Wanda", she was my idol, a strong female role model, who just happens to be very sexual. Dominatrix supreme with her little Pusscake in tow.

A little bit of life imitating art.
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AndroJenn
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Username: efrem

Post Number: 243
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 7:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Dominatrix supreme with her little Pusscake in tow."

Nope..., not into that SM schtick at all; and gave up on Playboy long before the mid 70s..., kind of inane they were....; although I did start 'reading' the mag in the 50s...., so, what else can you show me dear?

LOve,
Jenn
Nearly all men can stand adversity but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.-Abe Lincoln
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Carol's Here
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Username: carolelizabeth

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Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 8:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

? I am little confused, what am I meant to be showing you?

S&M is just one small part of a large community, my partner and I do not follow B&D or S&M, we have a fulltime D/s relationship. Why she was my idol was because she was a powerful female who ended up dominating the world of men, S&M was just an erotic addenda for the pleasure of the reader.
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AndroJenn
Senior Member
Username: efrem

Post Number: 244
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 8:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"? I am little confused, what am I meant to be showing you? "

Well..., with your initial assumption that I was not familiar with a particular strip in Playboy, in my logic, that proceeded to the idea that you thought the idea of nudity, bondage, domination, etc. was something I or others on the list would not be familiar with or understand..., you projected a kind of arrogance about what you are.

All of it's 'old hat' to me either in practice or theory; so, I replied, "What else can you show me?"

LOve,
Jenn

I'll be hitting the sack soon..., beddy bye time don'cha know; if I happen not to reply, that's why..., but welcome dear.
Nearly all men can stand adversity but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.-Abe Lincoln
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Carol's Here
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Username: carolelizabeth

Post Number: 5
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Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 8:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)


"Shirley Temple I ain't, more like Wicked Wanda, but I look more like Mel Gibson on the outside, which one is right?"
I was asking if,even though I am a large hairy male, I feel on the inside that I am no angel, but definitely feel 100% female, which thing is right by societies standards?

I am sorry if my way of asking or my way of explaining one of the characters I used in the question came off as arrogant to you, but then perception is a personal thing.
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AndroJenn
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Username: efrem

Post Number: 245
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Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 8:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"...perception is a personal thing. ..."

Yeppurs, that's why it's important to me to try to make myself as clear as I can in my speech or not speak at all.

Nytol...,

LOve,
Jenn
Nearly all men can stand adversity but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.-Abe Lincoln
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Carol's Here
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Username: carolelizabeth

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Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 7:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Luckily, I got to watch some of Jennifer's story on National Geographic. She and 2 others were telling the stories of their transitions and how it had affected their lives. Learned a lot from them.

Have also heard her play twice, snippets off cds, she is good.
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Barbara-Marie Drezhlo
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Username: damevara

Post Number: 25
Registered: 7-2005
Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 9:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dearest Carol:

Apropos your comment that psychologists simply string one along until they have extracted the maximum amount of gelt, it DOES happen. In my experience, both of the 'therapists' I dealt with were NOT fully qualified. Luckily, my endocrinologist always stood up for me, and I got over these hurdles with no problem.

In my MD's eyes, the reason many 'gender specialists' (NOT a professional term, BTW!) were subjective and unprofessional was that many (if not most) of them were tied up with 'gender identity' problems themselves. As for me, I can only say that my transition was uneventful, and my surgery anticlimactic.

This does NOT mean that there were, indeed, problems and predicaments! But now, at the remove of nearly two years since GRS, it can be seen in perspective.

So my advice? Smile, have a drink, and enjoy life! Things shall come, and the wait shall be seen to have been worth it. Speaking from the point of view of a VERY happy woman with a fiancee to die for, you SHALL make it, dear. I did NOT think that I was going to 'pass' at all. Now, I can see that HRT does indeed make a difference, you have to give it about 2 to 3 years. Take it from one who has gone there, seen it, and done that. May God bless you, dear.

your (imperfect) firend,
Barbara-Marie Drezhlo
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Carol's Here
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Username: carolelizabeth

Post Number: 7
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Posted on Sunday, November 06, 2005 - 2:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thankyou Barbara-Marie,

I have been having a bit of fun trying to find a therapist that isn't half a days drive, but it is fun searching.

From what I have seen, a lot of the therapists seem to lack the not so much the knowledge, but the compassion. Sometimes an individual doesn't fit into the box and they can see no way around it.
I have been noticing that there are a lot of people who say they have to tell there therapist what they want to hear in order to get results. Hopefully, I can find the right one.

Carol
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Barbara-Marie Drezhlo
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Username: damevara

Post Number: 27
Registered: 7-2005
Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 3:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dearest Carol:

Truth to tell, I recieved NOTHING of value out of the time that I spent with 'therapists'. One got the impression VERY quickly that they were only interested in having their prejudices and biases validated by their unwilling 'clients'.

In my case, I made and maintained a very close relationship with my endocrinologist, who was VERY leery of the psychological theory of the basis of 'gender identity disorder'. His view was that it is a physiological condition, which can only be treated by HRT and GRS.

Are you in the Bible Belt? Perhaps my being in a large metropolitan area in Upstate NY has led to an easier time of it than you are having. Do NOT despair, as you must give time for the hormone therapy to act, my MD said that it usually takes at least 2 years for satisfactory results. I started HRT in 11/99, had GRS in 2/04, and now I can say that no-one knows unless I tell them (which is NEVER, dear). Although the process is slow (maddeningly so at times), it is thorough, and I think that you shall be surprised pleasantly at the result. I can say that I am, quite definitely.

Please, be careful of what you are doing. As for me, it was definite from the beginning, and I entered into both HRT and GRS with no trepidation, and without qualms. Just realize that GRS is irrevocable. It is much as is marriage, if you have ANY doubts, do NOT take the final step. Just be aware that society is more comfortable with post-ops than it is with those who have not yet entered into surgery.

I hope that this has been of some small use to you.

I remain,
your not-so-saintly and stumbling friend,
Barbara-Marie Drezhlo

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