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Saddam Hussein : Can We Do the Christian Thing?

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scooper 2008-04-14, 18:05
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Christianity,

Welcome to our Forum!! Your standard Christian witness is well stated, but much of it is off-topic for this thread. On the other hand, this thread has been dormant for so long, maybe it is due for a change of direction. So, here goes.

You start by asserting that there are two "races" of Christians in this world. In reality, there is only one race - the human race. And we all stand together on the same side of the Cross -- the side into which we hammer the nails. Some Christians know this, others don't. And some few wind up receiving the nails into their own hands along with our Lord.

As for the Law and the Gospel, there is a permanent tension between them in this life. Maybe part of what this life is about is attempting to reconcile them in one's own person, in the way one lives, perceives, understands, thinks, speaks and acts. Only God can give us the ability to succeed in this, but succeed or fail, it is beneficial to try.

As for loving Saddam, well yes, we are called to forgive and to love Saddam. On the other hand, we are also called to restrain him from doing further harm. Life in prison would have been sufficient in American society. But in the Iraqi society that he terrorized? I do not know that society well enough to say.

And if we are called to forgive and love Saddam, then are we not called to forgive and love our fellow Christians who nevertheless stumble on the path lighted before them? And if we must reprove them, must we always use harsh words, or would it be better to follow the example of Jesus during his earthly ministry and listen to them before deciding what to say to them?
Because there is more to Religion than pleasing your Imaginary Friend.
Christianity (Guest) 2008-04-14, 10:42
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Brothers,

There are two races of Christians in today's world: those who call themselves Christians and those who truly are Christian.

Many will say unto Him that day, Lord, Lord, but He that does the will of the Father will enter the kingdom (Matthew 7:21). It is the will of the Father to believe on the Son.

Many profess Christianity throughout the world, and even more specific the name of the LORD, but not all know Him.

A great preacher once said it this way, "Where did the stars go this morning?... Did someone put them in their pocket and take them to another place?... The stars were there; there was just so much light that you couldn't see them."

Adding to that, God is like the stars. You won't begin to truly see who God is if you can't see the depravity and darkness of man (including yourself).

All man is evil and haters of God from birth. That's what the bible says -- it must be true (Romans 3:4). Any "Christian that says it's not isn't a Christian".

Apart from the grace of God a Christian would make Hitler look like a saint. The only thing holding back each person from acting out certain desires of their heart is the hand of God.

Those who know Him will love, for God is love. (1 John 4:8)

Love is the fulfilling of the commandments:
"Love is patient, love is kind {and} is not jealous; love does not brag {and} is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong {suffered,} does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails..." (I Corinthians 13:4-8)

"Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled {the} law." (Romans 13:8)

Let everything you do be for the glory of God (if you're a Christian) (I Cor. 10:31). If you're not a Christian then repent and believe. (Mark 1:15)

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." (John 14:15)

"The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;" (1 John 2:4)

Brothers, love one another -- that includes Saddam. We are not to hate anyone. There is no exception. At a time we used to be in the dark, walking in sin. We used to be the worst of sinners and if given the power we would have acted out our wicked heart desires. (Jeremiah 17:9) (Whoever disagrees makes God a liar).

What's the difference between the goats and the sheep? The difference between those who claim to know God and those who truly know Him?

Those who truly know Him keeps His commandments. Those who do NOT truly know Him do not keep His commandments:

"but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:" (1 John 2:5).

If you're not in Him then you're in the devil. If God is not your master then Satan is. You will do the deeds of God or Satan. "No one can serve two masters..." (Matthew 6:24)


I've quoted 1 John a lot. The reason for this is because that epistle was written to confirm whether someone is truly converted or not (There are 10 tests there):

"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."  (1 John 13:5)

Also Paul tells everyone to "Test yourselves {to see} if you are in the faith; examine yourselves!" (II Cor. 13:5)

There is no "Christian thing". It's either you forgive and be forgiven or not forgive and be not forgiven. (Matthew 6:15). It's either you keep the commandments of God or practice lawlessness. (Matthew 7:23)

"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. (John 15:12)

He causes His sun to rise on {the} evil and {the} good, and sends rain on {the} righteous and {the} unrighteous. (Matthew 5:45)

"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you," (Matthew 5:43-44)

Love your enemies. Forgive them. Don't talk about them behind their back: that's called gossip. It's a sin.

If any man should boast, let Him boast in the LORD.

May God watch over you all. May His wisdom and love be with you.

your brother,
Henry

PS. This is what happens during conversion, when God truly converts someone and changes their nature: ""For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances."  (Ezekiel 36:24-27)
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scooper 2006-11-06, 20:48
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Aussiescribbler,

Actually the words Accuser or Adversary are reasonably good English renderings of the Hebrew word satan. Indeed, this was Satan's role in the OT.

As to the soul of Man under socialism - the experiment of socialism has been tried by millions of people for 70 years or more, and the experience was found to be miserable, because the power of government under socialism is not limited strictly enough. If all people were both self-disciplined and well-meaning, then anarchy would be attractive. Since there are enough people who fit neither of those descriptions, we have as our best alternative Liberal Democracy. Liberal Democracy is a government that its people can change regularly, and that has only limited power over its people. One can combine Liberal Democracy with Limited Socialism (a "social safety net" as it were), in hope of achieveing a livable society, but unlimited Socialism in both illiberal and intolerable.

As to "Judge not, that ye be not judged," I think that we should refrain from pronouncing God's Judgement on others. Nevertheless, to live in the real world, we must make judgements as to what is good or bad for us, as in "Ye shall know a tree by its fruit."

The fruit of Saddam, besides his genocidal acts, is his two (fortunately) dead sons, whose abuses of innocent Iraqis for their own pleasure was more horrific than I can say here. As I said earlier, I would rather imprison him for life, but support hanging him if Iraq needs him dead. And it really isn't our call, anyway. It's the call of the Iraqi judicial system.

The Christian Theory of Just War has been rarely used in practice. The practicioners of war largely abandoned it in the 20th century.
Because there is more to Religion than pleasing your Imaginary Friend.
Aussiescribbler 2006-11-06, 20:18
Member since Oct 2006 · 7 posts · Location: Adelaide, South Australia
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History is not my strong point. But I think that, if you read my post carefully, you will see that I am advocating anarchism. Therefore it stands to reason that I agree with you that authoritarian rule was counterproductive in Iraq as it is everywhere. There were, however, those in our countries who found it desirable for Hussein to administer it for whatever reason.

My point is that Jesus said we are not to judge others if we do not wish to be judged. This is clear. This means judging nobody. I didn't say we were to forgive Hussein. It is for God to forgive. We do not have the authority.

I believe Jesus was an anarchist, and advocated that, while we should not fight authority ("Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's"), we should personally renounce any control over the lives of others. Which means neither supporting the hanging of Saddam, nor opposing it.

This interpretation of Christ's teachings is best articulated in Oscar Wilde's essay "The Soul of Man Under Socialism" :

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/hist_texts/wilde_soul.html

If only more people would listen to the wisdom of Wilde, rather than those who claim to speak for Jesus but really just repeat the "eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth" philosophy attributed to the Old Testament God. This concept of God the Accuser is, I believe, the main source of evil in the world.

And as for the two millenia of Christian theory on "just war", the sorry state of the world argues strongly in favour of it being in error.
This post was edited on 2006-11-06, 20:31 by Aussiescribbler.
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scooper 2006-11-05, 18:07
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Aussiescribbler,

You are way out of your depth on this one. Iraq was a pretty great place before Saddam, with an educated elite, an emerging middle class (due to a functioning economy) and a reasonably civil society. Saddam atomized the society and destroyed the economy during his dictatorship. His philosophy of rule was a mixture of tribalism (for technique), national socialism (centralized economy as well as neo-Nazi influence -- the Baathists were quite intentional about this last point), and pan-Arab nationalism (which has since been overcome by Arab disunity in the wake of the 1967 war with Israel). The current tribal chaos is caused by local leaders competing for power. Even this competition did not start up in earnest until it was apparent that the current Iraqi government backed by an inadequate number of troops (both Iraqi and US) was not filling the power vacuum left by deposing Saddam. The delay in filling the power vacuum is partly due to the ineptitude of the previous post-Saddam government as well as the previous one, and mostly due to the success of al-Qaeda and other insurgents in delaying the filling of that vacuum by means of both general terrorism, and deliberate targeting of ethnic/tribal groups to incite them to violence.

So, back to Saddam. Your thesis that only his type of authoritarianism could control Iraq is false. His type of authoritarianism so destroyed the civil society of Iraq that it only seems that way now. For this hanging does not seem to severe a punishment. He is not a scapegoat for the sins of us all. He bears his own for a method of rule that was manifestly unnecessary when he began it.

Finally, you advance the idea that the Christian thing to do is to forgive Saddam. That flies in the face of nearly two millennia of Christian theory on the subject of "Just War." I would rather to a Christian-Jewish-Muslim-Hindu-Buddhist thing and sentence him to solitary confinement until he dies of natural causes. But the need of Iraqi society to be sure that he is never coming back to power may be paramount. Maybe Iraq needs him dead. In that case, hanging is perhaps more merciful than the Islamic way: cutting off a hand and foot on opposite sides, and then cutting off his head.
Because there is more to Religion than pleasing your Imaginary Friend.
Aussiescribbler 2006-11-05, 14:52
Member since Oct 2006 · 7 posts · Location: Adelaide, South Australia
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Subject: Saddam Hussein : Can We Do the Christian Thing?
The Christian message says that we should judge not that we be not judged. What does this mean in the case of someone like Saddam Hussein who has committed horrendous atrocities?

I think it means recognising that if we had been given the job of maintaining authoritarian control over the warring parties within Iraq, we would have either committed much the same kinds of atrocities as Hussein or we would have failed in the job. The crimes were crimes inherent in the job he was asked to do, not in the man himself.

Aren’t those who asked him to do that job equally responsible for his sins? This includes those within Iraq who supported him, and also political and business leaders in other countries such as the United States, Britain and Australia, who helped or supported him in one way or another. In fact we could say they bear an even greater responsibility. At least Hussein had the guts to commit the atrocities himself, rather than employ a deniable intermediary.

And yet those who asked Hussein to do this job will not hang with him.

Has Hussein not become a scapegoat for the sins of us all. The sin being our fear of freedom, i.e. anarchy, i.e. the surrender of authority over others.

Now that Hussein has no power he will no longer need to commit atrocities. But those who are afraid of freedom may support another intermediary like him.

The government of the United States repeatedly claims that they are the world’s champions of Freedom, and yet increasingly they enact laws to try to monitor and control the behaviour of their citizens.

Even if we cannot find it in our hearts to do the Christian thing and forgive Saddam Hussein, let us at least vow to be less like him and catch ourselves when we start to try to tell others what to do.

Let those who say they believe in Freedom put their money where their mouth is and renounce their authority over others.
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