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Defense of Marriage
For and against Gay Unions, civil and religious

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scooper
User title: Pooper Scooper
Member since Apr 2006 · 62 posts · Location: United States
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Subject: More on Gay Marriage
I have resurrected two threads form VCBC's old Forum, that we hosted prior to a Denial-of-Service attack:

Gay Marriage

Spittle-Flecked, Hate-Filled Fundie Ramblings

Enjoy and comment on this page.
Because there is more to Religion than pleasing your Imaginary Friend.
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scooper
User title: Pooper Scooper
Member since Apr 2006 · 62 posts · Location: United States
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Subject: Re: Hidden Prejudices
Charles,

You also have a hidden prejudice. You seem to think that we are all blank slates when it comes to developing our affectional orientations. I doubt this to be true. I use the term "affectional orientation," because I'm referring to whom you can fall in love with, not whom you can have sex with. I remember reading about a culture in which the rite for initiating its male youth into adulthood included copulating with a hole in a tree. I do not remember that any of the boys ever fell in love with the tree. The decision to have sex is much more accessible to our faculty of rational choice and free will than is falling in love. I think that heterosexuals tend to fall in love with members of the opposite gender, and homosexuals tend to fall in love with members of the same gender as themselves. I also know people who can fall in love with members of either gender - these people are called bisexuals.

Your argument seems to imply that you think all people are really bisexual. I doubt this is the case. If you confine yourself to physically gratifying actions, then you may have a point. But I was not referring to physically gratifying actions. I was referring to the capacity and ability to love.

In terms of the ability to love, I think there really are people who are nearly exclusively "homosexual." Again, I see no harm in extending to them the benefits of marriage and the disincentives of divorce. In fact, I think it beneficial to them and to society as a whole (especially in its discouragement of promiscuity, and the stability it provides for the children these couples legally adopt).

What diminishes marriage is the tolerance of couples living together without making the formal adult commitment of marriage. It is part of our culture's perpetuating adolescence into old age, in all its self-aggrandizing and self-defeating puerility.
Because there is more to Religion than pleasing your Imaginary Friend.
Charles (Guest)
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Subject: Hidden Premises
Scooper, your challenge contains a premise or two. 

Your first premise is that a person can be a "homosexual."  I agree completely that a person can engage in homosexual behavior.  I agree that homosexual behavior stimulates the sympathetic nervous system and produces pleasurable sensations that gratify both physical and emotional deisires.  I agree that feelings of sexual desire can be aroused by a person with my same gender.  I agree that feelings of sexual desire can be supressed by a person of the opposite gender. Where I disagree is that homosexual behavior is inevitable in any particular human being.  The only thing we must do is die; all else is discretionary.  I know that this is pedantic, but until everyone admits that behavior is based on choice which is based on free will - however colored by circumstance and genetics - we cannot have a rational discussion on the topic. 

Your second premise is that marriage is nothing more than a social contract:  I agree to have an ongoing (monogamous) relationship in exchange for certain social benefits.  The presence or absence of copulation, procreation, and its attendant consequences are irrellevant.  The presence of absence of children is irrellevant.  How children are raised is irrellevant.  The diffuculties & nuances of heterosexual relationships are irrellevant.  The example I set with my behaior is irrellevant.  That all forms of sexual gratification are created equally (except - of course - polygamy, bestiality, statutory rape, and sexual assault / rape).  We will leave fornication, adultery, and divorce for another post.  If you define marriage as thus, again we have nothing else to discuss.  Your question is rhetorical.

If you think that maybe, just maybe, marriage just might possibly affect someone other than the two participants, then you must ask the question, what is best for these other participants?  Now, we can have a discussion.  The first part of this discussion must split the issue into secular and sectarian marriage.  Sectarian marriages by definition exist within the group of practicing believers and their orthodoxy.  Within very broad constraints this must be respected or you will court civil war.  The second part of this discussion then is left with civil unions.  What should our society promote in terms of civil unions?

I argue that society should promote civil unions that promote the development of children into responsible contributing members of our society  and that promote the maintenance adults as responsible contributing members of our society.  We do not want to promote anything that encourages sloth, disease, lust, greed, gluttony, anger, psychoses, pride, selfishness, or any of the other social curses.  To this end, I argue that monogameous heterosexual life-time civil unions provide the greatest benefit to the united couple, their progeny, and society at large.  I also argue that society should not condescend to or patronize those who wish to set their sights lower or create a "separate but equal" social group.  Next, to the Scooper's challenge, I argue making civil unions available to those who wish to publicly and proudly disply their predeliction for homosexual behavior makes it the equivalent of civil unons between those who engage in heterosexual behavior and thus encourages behavior that is not in society's best interests. It thus diminishes us all.

More to the true point of the challenge, I argue that discouraging homosexual behavior is not intrinsicly evil.  This is no different than society discouraging my sinful behavior - however enjoyable and socially popular it might be (I will save my confessions for my priest).  Two simple examples are divorce and alcholoism.  No one who has survived a divorce would wish it on their worst enemy.  No one who has survived alcholism would ask society to assent - much less consent or promote - its deleterious consequences.  And any believer or group of believers that rejects sinners from their midsts because of their choice of favorite sin is simply engaging their own favorite sin - pride.
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scooper
User title: Pooper Scooper
Member since Apr 2006 · 62 posts · Location: United States
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Actually, SNAP (Survivor's Network for those Abused by Priests) and other organizations DO protest against clergy abuse. But there is a thread here dedicated just to that.

If we are to prosper as a society, then we need to encourage people to get married, to procreate, and to stay (happily) married. The question here is how gay couples getting married diminishes this. I believe gay marriage strengthens support for straight marriage (which is its prototype), and I'm still waiting for anyone to prove me wrong.
Because there is more to Religion than pleasing your Imaginary Friend.
Becky (Guest)
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Subject: Gay marriage
Christians divorce at the same rate as non-believers. Chrsitians commit adultery at the same, if not a higher rate than non-believers(of course, it is really the devil making them).  Children of christians go through the ordeal of facing broken homes just as the children of non-believers. Christian pastors now divorce and commit adultery.  Many have been caught viewing porn on church computers. Thousands of so-called clergy are nothing more than pedophiles.  I guess the question is who determines what 'sanctity' of marriage is?  The biblical views on marriage make me gag.  The woman is reduced to the level of cattle and is never permitted to leave a marriage unless she stays single for the rest of her life.  Even if she is in an abusive marriage and kids also are being abused, there is no help for her or hope of happiness.  Is that sanctity?  Go to a shelter for abused women and children before you answer.  The self-righteous have to have someone to judge. It keeps them from facing their own hypocracy. The same verse they use to condemn gays is the same verse that condemns adultery, lying and gluttony, but they remain silent on thsoe issues.  Pot calling kettle or pious stupidity?  I have no way of knowing why some people are gay and frankly it is none of my business. I have known many gays who would help you any way possible. These people are gay, not child molestors.  Thousands of christian clergy have been convicted of child rape, also another topic never addressed in church...I wonder why! Their fellow christian brothers never protest nor point a finger at them....again, I wonder why?
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scooper
User title: Pooper Scooper
Member since Apr 2006 · 62 posts · Location: United States
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Well, now the California State Supreme Court has declared previous bans on Gay Marriage unconstitutional, and gay couples are now legally getting married in that state. I'm still waiting for anyone to take up my challenge and show me how Gay Marriage in any way harms my Straight Marriage. Or even for responses to the poll above.

Takers, anyone?
Because there is more to Religion than pleasing your Imaginary Friend.
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scooper
User title: Pooper Scooper
Member since Apr 2006 · 62 posts · Location: United States
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Subject: Defense of Marriage
I bristle when I hear "Defense of Marriage" used as a euphemism for "Denial of Marriage between Homosexual People." Try as I might, I just don't see how two people of the same gender getting married diminishes my 27+ year heterosexual marriage in any way. And to this day, no "Defense of Marriage" advocate has been able to explain it to me.

In fact, I see the desire of homosexuals to marry as affirming the institution of marriage. I think of Gay Marriage as the "100% Solution," because it would make marriage available to almost everyone who wants to participate in it. Now there are those who point out (correctly) that various polygamist groups are watching the Gay Marriage debate, seeking an opening for their style of marriage. To them I respond that we can count as far as two. Our culture, including its recent empowerment of women, depends and has depended on marriage being a binary union. We can stop at two.

But the polygamy argument is besides the point. We can take that up when it is raised in earnest. Returning to the main question here, can anyone explain to me just how it is that Gay Marriage diminishes Straight Marriage. (And I, for one am comfortable calling it something else, like Civil Union, when the ceremony is performed outside a religious institution, but then all marriages performed outside religious institutions are really Civil Unions, are they not?) So, names aside, show me the mechanism by which Gay Marriage diminishes the institution of Straight Marriage.

Other than by stimulating its opponents to use a euphemism, which in my view, is a lie.
Because there is more to Religion than pleasing your Imaginary Friend.
This post was edited on 2008-06-17, 08:05 by scooper.
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